Comments on Advance Indiana™: Tully Gets It Half Right On Bar In Government Center

Again, read the zoning file and look for an early ...

2006-08-30T21:35:00.000-05:00

Again, read the zoning file and look for an early permit. Then ask questions about it.

Also, someone said that the park was still being rezoned even though the zoning for the parking lot had been withdrawn. What is now pending is a variance of use petition for the "family restaurant." That petition only impacts the Carson Center building. The park property is no longer part of this petition.

You might want to talk to the planner for the case if you want more information.

Guess he's taking his toys and going home.I left m...

2006-08-22T12:41:00.000-05:00

Guess he's taking his toys and going home.

I left my kids at home this morning. Didn't think I'd have to deal with childishness in blogville.

But there is a huge difference between reviewing a...

2006-08-22T12:06:00.000-05:00

But there is a huge difference between reviewing a movie, Gary, reviewing the actions of political figures and taking shots at a media organization or those who work for it, especially if you're going to accuse them of "carrying water" for their sources and it is done by plenty of the best-known of them. Besides, doing so would actually give you far more perspective on news decisions than you currently have.

In any case, that's the last I'm saying on this subject. Given your most recent remarks in relationship to one of my colleagues, it's clear that you've drank too much proverbial Kool-Aid on this matter for any reasonable conversation to be had. A conversation can only be had between two or more reasonable people. And you're a long way from being reasonable.

RiShawn, Part of the role of bloggers is to serve ...

2006-08-22T11:26:00.000-05:00

RiShawn, Part of the role of bloggers is to serve as media critics. I doubt you would expect Roger Ebert to call up Oliver Stone and discuss with him the shortcomings of his latest movie before writing a bad review of it. That would sort of defeat the purpose behind being a critic wouldn't it?

RiShawn has a point.But Mr. Biddle, I don't think ...

2006-08-22T11:10:00.000-05:00

RiShawn has a point.

But Mr. Biddle, I don't think most people feel their editors and reporters are accessible. It may be a style and sensibility, or manners, issue.

If reporters and editors are truly open to that kind of dialogue, that's great.

You'll have to deal with the strange calls, but hey, we all deal with that in our jobs.

Thanks for the suggestion.

It does not, however, answer the questions regarding follow-up to Will's original story.

This is not just a bunch of shrill bloggers hollering about pet peeves. It is about some serious misuse of power.

By the time peopel get to a blog, they're usually already frustrated.

Just FYI.

"Why weren't these issues addressed in Higgins' in...

2006-08-22T08:28:00.000-05:00

"Why weren't these issues addressed in Higgins' initial article or a subsequent story?"

Here's the question Gary: Why don't you actually ask Will Higgins or an editor at The Star? Throughout all this, one thing that comes through -- and this has been an issue not only with you, but with other blogs -- is that there is the tendency to blast now, ask questions later, then get mad when editors and writers greet such pages with disdain. While that attitude isn't conducive to actually starting or maintaining a conversation or a relationship, one can understand this given the unwillingness to actually pick up the phone, make a call to any one of The Star staff -- whose numbers are easy to locate -- and then putting the question to them, then noting their response if it is one that is on the record.

A simple call beforehand would give you far more perspective on these matters than the simple blast now-ask later.

anonymous- How would you know what Wilson46201 is ...

2006-08-22T05:58:00.000-05:00

anonymous- How would you know what Wilson46201 is guitly of?

Wilson46201 - You are the hater, this discussion w...

2006-08-22T05:50:00.000-05:00

Wilson46201 - You are the hater, this discussion was about the conduct of elected officials in Center Township and their accountability to taxpayers.

You have proven by your remarks that you have logged in to monitor comments relating to Carson and Drummer now that you have retired.
Obviously, you have not retired from starting recent smear campaigns for them against their opponents.
Talk about the cover-ups and sloppy record keeping in the Trustee Office. Talk about ghost employment. Talk about all the games being paid on people who don't go along with their programs. You have injected yourself into the race for Congress attempting to smear Dickerson so Carson won't be blamed for it.

Voters and taxpayers have the right to question, to complain, to investigate, and to express their opinions regarding any public official's conduct in office. If they can't stand the heat, they should stay out of the kitchen!

Intimidation has been used to keep people from expressing their views.
So stop trying to!

As her "attack dog", where do you get your information?

Oh lighten up Jocelyn...Wilson isn't guilty of vot...

2006-08-22T04:55:00.000-05:00

Oh lighten up Jocelyn...Wilson isn't guilty of voter fraud.

All of us here in Sodom are way too tired working on the path to hell through the HRO, to worry ab out your fretting about Sodom, and voter fraud.

2006-08-21T19:13:00.000-05:00

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

aha --- Jocelyn Tandy has seemingly logged in as Q...

2006-08-21T18:04:00.000-05:00

aha --- Jocelyn Tandy has seemingly logged in as Queen916 with her tired old gossip. Last I saw Jocelyn, she was sputtering about "Sodom and Gomorrah" at the HRO C-C Council vote, a real hater. She knows financial records of any governmental unit are public --- Jocelyn has already requested hundreds of pages of documents at Center Township digging for dirt. Dry hole!

Carson was cited for having a PAC in the Trustee O...

2006-08-21T15:35:00.000-05:00

Carson was cited for having a PAC in the Trustee Office and forced employees to contribute to it. The funds were used to elect Tony Duncan, Center Township Constable. Remember the clothing store located on the corner of Davision and Massachusetts in the Center Township Building when Carson was Trustee. It was her store in the name of Louis and Doris Morse, her personal friends from 1991 - 1995. Carson had been selling clothes out of the trunk of her car after her boutique in the Claypool Courts closed and Simon properties sued her for $80,000.00 of unpaid rent. This store, Doris' Boutique provided school clothes to recipients of poor relief, most were over-priced designer jeans. They were raking in about $1 million and a half dollars between August and December each year. Carson was able to get out of debt with this sweetheart deal. Even though it was publicized, nothing was done about it. After Carson was elected to Congress the store was closed. The Trustee was allowed to redeem its own vouchers after January 1994 when the law was changed to remove the responsibility from the Marion County Auditor. There is no oversight to the financial dealings of Center Township. Carson made it very difficult to access financial records and contracts of the Trustee's office.
Former Congressman Andy Jacobs is her protector and supporter in the Party. Evidently she has the goods on him!

Your link, please, Sir Hailstone?

2006-08-21T12:27:00.000-05:00

Your link, please, Sir Hailstone?

Zach, No intent to slight RiShawn. I observed his ...

2006-08-21T11:18:00.000-05:00

Zach, No intent to slight RiShawn. I observed his post when he first made it. My reference to bloggers were those outside the mainstream media.

RiShawn, the important point is that the most important aspect of the story has never been reported in the Star's pages. The restaurant/bar was constructed without the proper zoning/variance approvals, no construction permits were properly obtained and the construction was done in violation of numerous state and local building code requirements. After all that, the city didn't fine anyone, and quickly gave approval to the zoning/variance petitions. This raises even more serious questions than the actual act of tearing down the park to make room for the restaurant/bar in the Carson government center. Why weren't these issues addressed in Higgins' initial article or a subsequent story? Remember, this just wasn't the actions of a private contractor, this involved the people we elect to run our township government and the public property over which they oversee.

For what its worth I have the links posted to the ...

2006-08-21T09:18:00.000-05:00

For what its worth I have the links posted to the various actions concerning the DMD and "300 East" .. unofficially known as "Carson's".

So there we have it. The Star's news judgment is,...

2006-08-21T09:03:00.000-05:00

So there we have it. The Star's news judgment is, they don't think the tavern story is as important as other news they print. Fair enough.

But a little haughty, RiShawn. I've liked your columns ever since Amos took off after you. Anyone who riles that self-involved puffbag has my respect.

Care to count up the column inches devoted to, say, "fluff" while Will's original story followup was extinguished? Your post on Expresso is not available to regular readers, only to those who use the online edition.

The Star is entitled to make news judgment decisions every day. No problem with that.

This issue bumps up against multiple elected officials, a city department or two whose actions are at best questionable, and a member of the U.S. House.

Still want to stick with the news judgment thing? How about a blanket admission that altho Will broke the story, and you posted about it (very nicely, too) on your Expresso page, The Star has completely dropped the ball subsequently?

Or are you required to defend this? Is it in the Gannett employee handbook?

Now Gary, you're sidestepping the overall point I'...

2006-08-21T08:36:00.000-05:00

Now Gary, you're sidestepping the overall point I'm making here. It's not about the merits of Tully's column; I take no position on it and won't. The criticism I make is that there is this argument being made that your blog, along with others, have done all the spadework when in reality, you wouldn't have had any material to work with in the first place if not for The Star. Let's not forget this. To simply take credit for an reporting that didn't begin with blogs, but with the so-called mainsteam media (as if to ignore all all the crossover between blogs and other media operations) is rather rich.

I'm not saying that your site didn't advance on the original story; that is reality and kudos to you and others for doing so. But this argument that all the work was done by blogs is a tad disingenuous.

And let's also note my other point: While you may argue that The Star hasn't covered every one of your pet issues in the same dogged manner that you want, you cannot say that The Star hasn't covered many issues in a dogged manner. After all, it is my editorial page (and the news side) that brought to light the problems of the juvenile justice system; last I checked, no one else is doing so. Same for township government and the dropout crisis. These are important issues, even more critical in the long run than whether a bar is built in the Julia Carson Government Center. The decision to cover those issues are based on news judgment or what is considered most important given the space and time constraints given. In deciding your coverage of issues, you are doing the same thing as do other blogs. So the criticism of news judgment, while a popular exercise for those who have never worked in a newsrooom, isn't always a valid one.

To AI's knowledge, Ruth Holladay's blog is the onl...

2006-08-21T08:32:00.000-05:00

To AI's knowledge, Ruth Holladay's blog is the only other blog besides this one to focus attention on this issue.

Besides Holladay and AI, RiShawn Biddle posted about this at Expresso.

Well-spoken, AI. Will's story was good. It was s...

2006-08-21T06:50:00.000-05:00

Well-spoken, AI. Will's story was good. It was short. There was a mountain of information there, and he hit on the very tip.

What we expected from Tully, RiShawn (and we should've known better), was more in-depth reporting. The first post or article on this huge story, was followed by a great deal of info and tips which needed checked. Tully made one or two calls, judging from his column. And each was to a hack.

We expect more from the state's largest paper. Much, much more.

And if Will's story was brilliant (it was OK, not brilliant), where were his followups? Huh? He's had two weeks.

RiShawn, I don't think anyone is criticizing Higgi...

2006-08-21T06:20:00.000-05:00

RiShawn, I don't think anyone is criticizing Higgins' story; it was a very good start. There was enough there to indicate more digging on the story on the Star's part. Much more has been brought to light by the blogs. People were disappointed that Tully didn't add anything beyond what Higgins reported 2 weeks ago, particularly given the gravity of those newly-discovered facts.

Pardon me for a second, but before some of you pro...

2006-08-21T06:04:00.000-05:00

Pardon me for a second, but before some of you proclaim that The Star is being beaten by blogs on a story, don't forget that all of this began with the stellar work of my news side colleagure Will Higgins, who mapped out the entire matter in his story on the bar and park fiasco earlier this year. While AI and others may have done some digging since then, there wouldn't be anything to dig if not for Higgins.

And let's not forget some of the other stories blogs in this town haven't nailed or kept digging at: Problems at the Marion County Juvenile Detention Center; the state's dropout crisis and the related lack of clear disclosure of those problems by state and local officials; the wastefulness of township government.

When it comes to the question of keeping up on an story or an issue, it cuts both ways. Nobody can stay on every issue all the time -- the economics of time and space dictate that -- and just because you think an issue is important doesn't mean that everyone agrees. That's why it's called news judgment.

I emailed all members of the city council and got ...

2006-08-20T21:50:00.000-05:00

I emailed all members of the city council and got the following from Scott Keller:

I'm guessing that today's "Indpls Star" article killed the deal. Although I'm not against bars per se, I certainly am against back-door deals and building construction violations! Thank you. Scott

Huh??? As it has been pointed out so beautifully by so many before me, what did Tully say???

fwiw, that "crackhouse" that infects the fevered i...

2006-08-20T20:16:00.000-05:00

fwiw, that "crackhouse" that infects the fevered imagination of some GOP folk was sold on contract to a young married couple who were to be responsible for the taxes. The marriage busted up and they defaulted. In 1996 Ms.Carson was single-mindedly focussed on the election campaign and let personal matters slip. Yes, that house was demolished and Ms.Carson paid the City in full for the work. It cost the taxpayers nothing.

when you are campaigning as a successful businessm...

2006-08-20T20:10:00.000-05:00

when you are campaigning as a successful businessman and your business implodes in the middle of the campaign, it's worthy of notice, don't you think? It's kinda like Katherine Harris boasting of being a great personnel manager ...

but I do think putting the restaurant/bar in Eric's soon-to-be empty building is a good compromise...

Wilson, I should add that Democrats cried foul whe...

2006-08-20T19:33:00.000-05:00

Wilson, I should add that Democrats cried foul when Rep. Chris Chocola's campaign recently tried to make an issue of Joe Donnelly's personal financial problems.