Comments on Advance Indiana™: Barnes v. State: Echoes of Fred Sanders?

Something that is always left out of every Fred Sa...

2014-08-15T00:44:19.940-05:00

Something that is always left out of every Fred Sanders/Officer Faber story retelling is that the Prosecutor, Stephen Goldsmith, was going for the death penalty. However, Wishard Hospital ICU chart review showed that after several in-patient days, Officer Faber was improving, he suddenly got worse, started to run a fever, and showed signs of lung infection. He went downhill fast and then died. During the early days of his fever spike, the pharmacy did a consult and recommended a change of antibiotics. The order was never picked up and enacted; the antibiotic was never changed to one that showed promise by culture and sensitivity to be effective against the new pathogen. The infection got worse until Officer Faber died. It was this discovery of nursing error that took the case out of the death penalty realm.

A vintage song about Fred Sanders: http://morethi...

2012-06-13T17:16:18.210-05:00

A vintage song about Fred Sanders: http://morethings.com/mp3/bfsanders.mp3

Tell it to Jose Guerena. Tell it to Officer Jared ...

2012-01-16T11:39:58.700-05:00

Tell it to Jose Guerena.
Tell it to Officer Jared Francom.

Real late on this post, but would like to say: @S...

2011-09-11T16:29:30.191-05:00

Real late on this post, but would like to say:

@SW Lane - Maybe it would be the fact that "a team" of cops would come to meet someone ready to stand against cops who would use the power that the people allow them as a venue to boost their egos. One-on-One or Team-against-Team, I think you'd get quite a few takers.

Unfortunately, that's probably how officer Faber got killed: he kept his attitude up when he answered a call against someone who was willing to take him on.

As was stated, neither Faber nor Sanders deserved getting what they got. It's not too common that someone is willing to stand up to cops when they act out of line. Unfortunately, it IS too common that cops act out of line with people, and overstep their legal rights to get their way. That is the whole issue here. Unfortunately a good man got killed, and apparently his fellow police did not learn the lesson to be learned. Instead they learned only tactical lessons...which is helpful and proper when dealing with those purely evil individuals in society. The trick for the cop is, to make sure that, even if it is a greater danger to himself, he should always be distinguishable from the evil ones, and never compromise the founding principles of our society. If anyone has ever dealt with our legal system, they may have been told that a certain amount of injustice they must put up with is simply the price we must pay for a free society. Such ideas as it being better to allow 10 guilty to go free if it were to mean putting one innocent in prison...so too, the police have their prices they must pay as their part in justice for all. After all, it IS a job, and one they choose to work. In doing so, they should be prepared to pay the price required to operate within the founding principles and spirit of the laws. Those officers who do are truely brave and admirable Officers. Those who don't are cowardly, bastard traitors, and need to be reigned in by civilians if necessary.

I don't know the truth in this story. Those who were there may or may not. If they do, they know whether or not they are heroes and paid the ultimate price, or if they are cowardly scum, traitors to the people and all their oaths, and should be in the prisons they sent their most evil captives.

http://ruthholladay.com/2009/may/21/a-neighborhood...

2011-06-11T23:32:56.903-05:00

http://ruthholladay.com/2009/may/21/a-neighborhood-incident/

Pete [unverified] said:
Weirdly enough, Fred Sanders was actually my fourth grade teacher. Unlike basically everyone else from my parish community, I wasn't at all surprised at his actions that night.

2009-05-22 09:57:38
Tell The Truth [Member] said:
Yeah, Pete...Fred was an odd duck But he didn't deserve his fate. No one does.

2009-05-22 13:38:15
i like cheese [Member] said:
@pete

Man, we must have led parallel lives. I went to St. Luke for 2 years; 5th and 6th grade, so I just missed Fred. But my overwhelming impression of him was that he was psychotic. The stories of him ripping up phone books in front of the class and breaking desks? He screamed at me, at the top of his friggin' lungs, for pounding on a locked door. It was winter, I was locked outside, and I was trying to get into the school.

I can't say I was surprised at what happened to Fred. The guy really had anger issues. That's not to imply he deserved it. And the cop certainly didn't deserve it either. I think my point is that if you are the police, you can't escalate a situation as your first course of action. It doesn't matter that officer Walters is a nice guy and maybe he was having a bad day. When you carry a gun and are entitled to use deadly force, you don't _get_ to have a bad day.
2009-05-22 15:09:45
Pete [unverified] said:
Good to see we're in agreement about the Fred Sanders situation. Neither he nor the cop deserved their fates, but both of them consciously made choices to escalate the situation, and the cop had even less excuse to do so.

I sort of pegged Sanders as possibly being not the best role model for children when he would feed rats to his boa constrictor during recess. Or maybe it was the time he showed up to school with a black eye. Man, St. Luke was a seriously dysfunctional place.
2009-05-22 15:58:16
i like cheese [Member] said:
God, St. Luke. How I hated, hated, hated that place. If there ever was a place with a bigger concentration of dickheads, I haven't found it.
2009-05-22 17:20:48
Tell The Truth [Member] said:
Wow. St. Luke, the physician saint....heal thyself, huh?
2009-05-23 09:30:24

I sure would like to know who the students were th...

2011-06-10T06:16:51.054-05:00

I sure would like to know who the students were that hated Fred. I graduated with his last 4th grade class he taught there. From what I recall everyone loved the guy. If fact, I have an old 8th grade graduation photo with him. The students invited him to come to the graduation when they heard he was released.

Reasonableness was never Henry’s long suit. It wa...

2011-06-03T01:00:15.299-05:00

Reasonableness was never Henry’s long suit. It was his way or the f-ing highway. As a former student, would you not agree? Henry and dissent, now there is an odd couple. I wonder how Henry would have handled a Barnes or a Sander given that both did not like what they were told. I’m sure Cato would say that Henry was far too intelligent to have ever been a police officer, while AI and Ogden would wax about Henry sitting with the aggrieved parties in a long white robe distributing his Solomon like wisdom and clearing up the whole misunderstanding lickety-split. I’ve got bad news for you, Henry had no answers. He had judgments. Lots of them. No plan for how it could have been resolved. Maybe he would have agreed with Cato would argue Faber should not have come at all. Who cares if the child is bitten? Better poor Fred not be bothered in his castle.

I believe it would have been reasonable for Sanders to have satisfied the state that he wasn’t going to allow his f-ing dog to eat the kid next door. I further believe it would have been reasonable for Barnes to show the state that he meant his wife no harm, since she called the state for that very reason. It is absolutely mindboggling that complainants are so quickly disposed of when a defense or civil attorney shows up. Your reflection on the story proves he didn’t bother with the small matter of why we were there in the first place.

If it took a “few minutes” to get a warrant it would be no problem to get them. However, in the real world, it would take a significant amount of time to get from the scene to the court, fill out the paperwork, go in front of the judge, answer any questions they may have, get the necessary cause number from the court staff, make copies and return to the scene.

I never said he was beaten half to death. I saw him that night, live and in person at Wishard. Did Henry? His eye was not out of socket. That is bull. He had a black eye. I recall the only reason he was admitted to the hospital was for the gunshots he received after shooting Faber in the back. He got an asswhipping from a distraught friend. As I said, I believe he regrets it now. Testosterone and adrenaline are hard to control when you are dealing with strangers, try it with a good friend.

I believe a citizen should have a right to resist an unlawful entry by the State within reason as well. Unfortunately, a reasonable person rarely lets a dog attack children or threaten his wife. Reason was not in abundance with either Sanders or Barnes. “An over-powering government” was the only thing that stopped either of these Neanderthals from further victimizing the complainants. That is how it works. Those who abjure violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf.

That spinning sound you hear is Henry rolling over...

2011-06-03T00:59:55.504-05:00

That spinning sound you hear is Henry rolling over in his grave at high speed upon reading your first sentence. It has become clear to me that the review of the enforcement of the law has become a Rorschach test. Even the Clantons are lionized today as misunderstood victims. I know that I wasn’t there and have no first hand knowledge of the gun fight at the OK corral, but I’m sure Cato has some “wisdom” about the incident, since he was as much there as he was on Arthington.

Henry can give his version of the account, hiding the parts that don’t fit his narrative, while the dead guy’s family has to listen to Henry’s disciples assassinate his character for the rest of their lives. By the way, they moved out of state and took his body with them. Good move on their part, since this unthankful city doesn’t deserve his presence. That shitty little strip of grass on E. Washington Street was a slap in the face. They should have told Peterson to stick it.

I had the same unease about the Supreme Court's ruling in Barnes, but for different reasons. The rise in police impersonations and home invasions makes me very uneasy about the courts telling an UNSUSPECTING PUBLIC to succumb to anyone who forces their door open while wearing anything that looks like a police uniform.

Barnes and Sanders were far from unsuspecting. They were SUSPECTS. Henry could like that or not, but they were. We know because 911 calls from victims told us so. The officers were lawfully there and were asking legitimate questions to solve tangible problems. No one questioned the legitimacy of the police presence. In both cases, bullies who had threatened others, one even calling the victim a racial epithet, retreated after unsuccessfully trying to intimidate their victims. They both tried to escape responsibility. Sanders had the obligation to keep his animal from endangering children. Is this not in the interest of both the state and the victims? Barnes grabbed a phone from his wife and placed her in fear for her safety. No legitimate interest there either? Both thought they were above the law.

While I agree that shredding 500 years of jurisprudence to reasonably defend against intruders, threats, and illegal entries by the State, I believe both these cases show that one man’s will to disregard the law for his own reasons should not be grounds for retreating from that law.

I absolutely agree that death is far too much of a...

2011-06-02T09:31:36.399-05:00

I absolutely agree that death is far too much of a penalty to pay for what is essentially a probable cause argument, and I totally understand the law enforcement point of view. My issue is that by agreeing with this notion, I feel that I am agreeing with the Supreme Court's ruling in Barnes, which I absolutely do not. Barnes talks about the protection of police and citizens with their ruling However, I do not agree with shredding 500 years of jurisprudence to reasonably defend against intruders, threats, and illegal entries by the State. I guess then the question becomes one of reasonableness (I hate lawyers). At least in the Barnes case there was a reasonable response (a shove, and a holding of the door, I believe), and the State would still have the issue of whether or not the entry was illegal via exigent circumstances. Maybe police should err on the side of caution and call a detached Magistrate before making an entry. I mean, what's the harm in waiting a few minutes to attempt a warrant? What do you think?

To me, this incident was an extreme incident of reasonably resisting unlawful entry. I know there is no concession that the entry was unlawful, and there was no concession that Sanders's response was reasonable. I think you are right that if he was not beaten half to death afterward then the State would have obtained a murder conviction as the defense would not have been able to say that blasting an officer in the back was a reasonable response to an entry into the home (lawful or unlawful). The harshness of what I believe a homeowner/citizen should be able to reasonably do comes out in this case, as an officer was unfortunately killed. I still believe a citizen should have a right to resist an unlawful entry by the State within reason, and I believe that it is okay to firmly believe in this right and still concede that the Sanders case would have turned on reasonableness and disputed "facts" that were never tried to a criminal jury. I guess I am simply reconciling these two issues: 1) that I believe nobody should be killed over a probable cause dispute and 2) that citizens should be able to defend themselves from State agents (and in absolutely extreme cases...use deadly force).

My memories of Karlson do reflect a one-sided presentation of the story back in 2004. He liked to describe how Sanders's eye was beat out of his eye socket. I don't recall many details as to why the police were called, but simply that it was, at most, an ordinance call. He did not think highly of the IPD and talked about death threats he had received. Nobody in the class seemed to know enough about the facts, but I would have been happy to see an open dialogue on the subject. I think his view on the over-powering government echoes mine in that the King of England (originally) nor the President of the United States shall not enter my hovel without a warrant. Notwithstanding the Sanders case, many here could probably agree with that. Coming from a law school that I thought as a Land of Liberals, it was refreshing to have Karlson's conservative point-of-view. I appreciate everyone's input and thoughts on the subject. I think it would make an excellent book allowing all point-of-views to be heard, including the fallen.

The only breath of fresh air I detect is your post...

2011-06-02T02:00:24.964-05:00

The only breath of fresh air I detect is your post. In comparing it to the mindlessness of Cato and the carelessness of Ogden, I can only wonder where you came from.
Since you are soliciting opinion, I will throw mine in. I obviously disagree with some of my compatriots about whether it was wise to enter the home instead of retreating and calling for animal control. As you say, it is easy to do with the benefit of hindsight. Your experience with Karlson is much different from mine. If we are to believe this vision of the “over-powering government” in this case, we should look at two issues.
1. We did not go looking for Fred Sanders. Trust me, it is unanimous, we wish we would have never heard of him. It was a very hot Sunday night and no one was looking for anything at shift change. We worked very short on Sundays anyway and especially in August when most vacations were scheduled. We were called there by Perry Evans. He and a child were victims of Fred Sanders and his lack of control of his dog. Would anyone, including Karlson deny this?
2. Faber went there alone. He was dramatically smaller than Sanders, yet declined the assistance of a much larger officer, who would have made a front yard arrest easier. Kennedy’s presence would have probably convinced Sanders that he should stay in the front yard because he wasn’t going to be able to handle both officers. (Call this intimidation if you wish)
Did we have many more resources we could have sent? Yes. Did Faber ask for anything until after the complete lack of assurances that the neighborhood would be safe after Faber left? No.
Would Karlson have been receptive to that kind of thought in the classroom? If he allowed for all points of view in this case to be debated openly it would really surprise me. I don’t recall him ever giving Faber the benefit of the doubt in any way. Whether it was a good arrest or not could be debated, but denying the possible existence of an arrest is irrational. Death seems a hefty penalty for a disagreement over probable cause though.

It is easy to pontificate 23 years later on a horr...

2011-06-01T12:15:43.489-05:00

It is easy to pontificate 23 years later on a horrific event. I did not live in Indy at the time, but I took Henry-The-K's class. One can defend themselves and their homes with reasonable force; however, deadly force can be used to defend one's self if there is a fear of serious bodily injury. Serious bodily injury is defined, in part, as extreme pain (like a broken bone) or unconciousness. Simply reading the thread, I am unclear if Sanders's hand and/or leg were broken at the door before the shooting or after the death of Faber. Also of note, I have no idea what the law regarding the Castle Doctrine and self defense was in 1988. I simply am curious as to your opinions regarding to that.

It seems, as Karlson suggested, that self defense may have been appropriate; however, that would turn on whether or not Sanders was under arrest in his yard. Obviously, this point is important to the equation and there are two different stories. I question a disorderly conduct arrest simply because one would think witnesses(neighbors) would have been present to say that Sanders was out of control in his front yard after being told by Faber to quiet down. Maybe there were witnesses; again, I am just asking and I am curious.

One thing I can comment on regarding Karlson is this: the man was a breath of fresh (conservative/libertarian) air in an extremely liberal institution. I believe the man, a vet himself, truly cared for individual rights and feared an over-powering government. I mean no disrespect to a group of officers who lost and/or saw a comrade perish in the line of duty, and it is admittedly easy to dissect a case in class using the law. I admit that I share suspicions with Cato after seeing police elaboration regarding PCAs as both a prosecutor and a defense attorney; I also admit that I believe that a man's home is indeed his castle and nobody, government entity or otherwise, has the right to enter without a warrant. I whole-heartedly disagree with police entry into Barnes's home after establishing that the complaining witness is okay. Most officers I speak with regarding this matter agree that the ruling it too invasive, but I write from an extremely conservative county. I am curious of your opinions and am curious if the officers believe that unfettered entry into a home is a good idea.

Gary, I don't blame you for any misinformed co...

2011-05-24T20:33:06.867-05:00

Gary, I don't blame you for any misinformed comments about this situation-you weren't here at the time, and probably havent read the whole story, archived in Superior Court Records.

Ogden, You disappoint me. You lapped up all the buzzwords like "ourageous conduct", "illegal behavior", etc without any independant thought or verification. You lost ALL credibility when you said "officers" when you described the initial confrontation with Sanders. There was only 1-Faber. More on that later.

Cato, the violent, sociopathic tendancies you ascribe to the Police? Look in the mirror. Most of the violent comments and your opinions on the poice in general are more psychotic than any cop I have ever known, with the exception of Myron Powell. I believe the psychological term is "projection".

I knew Matt Faber only briefly, and rode with him the night before he was shot. We took several runs in the Brightwood area. He impressed me with his diplomacy..I mean hey, when you are 5'6 and maybe 150, you cant be anything BUT diplomatic when resolving conflicts. That's what always bothered me about this: The fact that the initial events leading up to the shooting were of a 1-sided informant-Sanders. And he had nothing to gain by being honest.

The definition of police brutality is when the police forgo their professionalism and act LIKE ANYONE ELSE WOULD, given a situation. Seeing your friend shot in the back was the catalyst. The officers were punished-one fired, one taken off the street forever, and so forth. But to say Faber was wrong? Hell no, and this whole rehashing has led me to delete several Facebook "friends" who are brainless parrots. So be it.

Rest in Peace, Matt.

Only the second half of my post got through and th...

2011-05-24T17:18:57.945-05:00

Only the second half of my post got through and the name michael attached. it should have bee from BigDuke006 and after the one that started with I really thought...

Just fyi, if you can put them in the right order I would appreciate it.

Thx

I really thought you were gone, but since you came...

2011-05-24T17:15:09.219-05:00

I really thought you were gone, but since you came back with the same BS, I guess you've got nowhere else to go.

Even Sanders had the common sense to realize he is a pariah and just go away. He disappeared years ago. I know he used to go downtown and stand on the corner of Market and Delaware to see who might recognize him or whatever weird motivation he had.

Why don't you track him down and discuss your admiration for him. Fred Sanders as folk hero. That doesn't seem to resonate, now does it. Seriously, you should write an editorial in the Star.

He's probably sitting around in a white robe with a pointy hat and nothing to do. He'd probably enjoy your company. Since you won't address his overt racism, I'm sure you would enjoy his too.

Since you asked, and I actually was there, I will answer your accusations.

I volunteered for the run from 13th and Pennsylvania, which was where my beat assignment was, on the old Adam Sector. This incident occurred on Boy Sector. I did not make it to the scene before Faber’s ambulance was already gone and Sander’s was just leaving. Since I was a rookie, and had never worked Boy Sector, I incorrectly assumed 10th Street was the fastest route. I was wrong.

If by “attempt murder” you mean the disorderly conduct and resisting arrest resulting in the shooting in the back of a police officer…which in turn resulted in the ass beating of a murderer…the answer is no.

I have spoken to a lot of officers about it over the years, and I wish I had been there during the apprehension. I would have tried to shield his voluminous ass from the obviously very angry officers. If cooler heads had prevailed, I’m sure he would have been taken into custody without unnecessary injuries. A jury, seeing Sanders with two bullet wounds inflicted after he had shot Faber in the back, would not have been so quick to believe that he wasn’t just being arrested. Sanders would have had to convince a jury that he shot Faber in the back to defend himself against potential injuries. I guess it goes without saying that you agree with this premise.

The officer’s response was to the shooting, not to the dogs. If you really believe that what happened to him after the shooting is what he would have gotten if he just gave up, you are just not a serious person. He would have been handcuffed and sent to lockup for DOC. End of story. Cato has nothing to amuse himself with 23 years later. You are a sickening ghoul.

For the record, I believe it was Detective Sergeant Steven West who asked an intubated Faber in the Wishard Memorial Hospital Intensive Care Unit if Sanders was under arrest. Blinking twice, Faber confirmed that he was arresting Sanders. So this dying declaration would indicate the entry was legal.

Right and wrong or legal or illegal? A free peopl...

2011-05-24T14:28:38.946-05:00

Right and wrong or legal or illegal? A free people pay taxes, and expect that their officers are properly trained to enforce the law. This is a nation of laws, is it not? Right and wrong don’t get you too far in court. I thought you were an attorney.

I really enjoy an attorney not wanting to be bothered with facts. Anyone who thinks he has all the answers probably has none.

Facts are stubborn things. I only know what I saw with my own eyes, read from statements of people who were there, and heard them say it themselves, under oath.

What do you have? The undying knowledge that you know better, even though you were four years old at the time.

The disorderly conduct arrest which was occurring in the front yard trumps all of your conjecture. It is unfortunate that Goldsmith did not have the courage to try the case. Without question, there were always skeptics, but it was a winnable case.

Goldsmith’s running for mayor and away from angering the archdiocese turned the tide against the department in criminal court and the city in civil court.

The only lesson Sanders taught was in prison to some poor illiterates. I believe that was his job there. Remember, he was the one who PLED GUILTY.

As is usually the case, this wasn’t about a dog. It was about a racist ass that could not be told what to do (sounds a lot like Barnes), and a police officer who was arresting him to insure the safety of the children in the neighborhood by removing him and his dog.

You know, I might be able to get the case files from the archives. If I can, you and Ogden could look them over. You could get the transcripts from criminal and civil courts and then you might be able to draw a reasonable conclusion. Maybe then you could explain why you are defending this murdering racist piece of filth.

You just keep coming back with your blathering innuendo and I'll be right here, telling you the facts of this incident.

You obviously have no first hand knowledge of this case and Ogden "lived in Indianapolis" making him an expert.

Just keep shooting your little .25 from a safe distance, out of the glare of scrutiny. Those of us who go out and work in the real world with real consequences will enlighten you, while you vegetate in your mom's basement.

Duke, you were on the run? Did you also participat...

2011-05-23T07:01:19.215-05:00

Duke, you were on the run? Did you also participate in the attempted murder?

And you still can't seem to get a grasp on the law. "Fresh pursuit" only applies if a crime has been committed. Telling a cop to buzz off is not a crime, so Faber and the other cops entered the house illegally.

"That is what police and military do. Follow their training."

Unsatisfactory. The police need to follow right and wrong. Attempting to shift accountability to a classroom is not tolerated by a free people.

"If you didn't demonstate such an outrageous lack of knowledge about the case I would suspect you of being Sanders. Why else would you so obviously ignore his racist comments and behavior."

Because, like the rest of your obfuscations and misdirections, it's irrelevant to the only issue that matters: did the cops enter Sanders' home illegally, and did Sanders have a right to defend himself from the malevolent armed invaders?

"He [Sanders] was the bad guy, not Faber."

No, Faber was the bad guy, as he was in a man's home without permission.

"You two have no concept of what it is like to be called to a run that might end your life."

If a dog call has the potential to end life, we really need to find better people with calmer tempers to do this job. If we took your guns away, your egos might come down a few pegs.

Bottom line: Sanders taught you a lesson about freedom, that night. In order to freedom to reign, that lesson needs to be understood by every agent of every government.

PO, You should read all the posts before commentin...

2011-05-20T05:27:37.980-05:00

PO,
You should read all the posts before commenting. You and Cato are supposed to be lawyers right? Why don't you just read the transcripts from the civil cases and Sanders criminal hearings. Is your post supposed to be representative of what you would do for court? Underwhelming.
As for the weight issue, it is germane to the question of Faber's inability to subdue him in the front yard. You really are an attorney, aren't you?

Cato,
I was not only on the run, but also in the courtroom and the testimony was that it happened exactly that way. Sanders agreed. Why can't you?

Sanders decided he couldn't get Faber's foot out of the door and he couldn't keep them from opening it much longer, so he retreated to the bedroom. He opened the door and they fell in on the floor. If you or Sir Isaac have a problem with that, take it up with Sanders.

Even a broken clock is right twice a day and you are right about the overreaction of police. Faber should have just backed off. I thought we were all clear on that. Instead, he followed the training he was given, (which in this case was wrong and he was too young and new to know.) But that is what he was told to do, not let him close the door.

That is what police and military do. Follow their training. That is why 99.9999% of police work ends well and goes unnoticed by the hermetically sealed ivory tower. We use experience from previous experience to not repeat errors.
You two have no concept of what it is like to be called to a run that might end your life. You Monday morning quarterback your way through life. SW lane and mphill109 do know what it is like and deserve respect for it.

You get the rest of your miserable little insignificant life to dissect what a more selfless person tried to do to help keep some kids safe from a racist ass who meant them harm and thought them less than human.

If you didn't demonstate such an outrageous lack of knowledge about the case I would suspect you of being Sanders. Why else would you so obviously ignore his racist comments and behavior.

He was the bad guy, not Faber. You can argue illegal forced entry all you want and I'll tell you he killed the only person who could have challenged it with fresh pursuit.

I know that Matt Faber was a hero for what he tried to do and he will vilified forever for how it ended. The victor writes the history (through Karlson in the law school) and Goldsmith got his Catholic vote, and Faber was just dead with your ignorant ass dancing on his grave. That's life in the real world, not your silly little vacuum. Just keep telling yourself that you matter Cato. I doubt anyone else will tell you that.

Watch over us Matt...

2011-05-20T05:09:38.526-05:00

Watch over us Matt...

Cato: Have you taken your medication? -That sa...

2011-05-19T21:07:37.222-05:00

Cato: Have you taken your medication?

-That said I will give you a final answer to one of your many false assertions, when you say "there's a reason why that fairy tale lost in court."

Said so well by The Judge in the case: "Although the precise course and rationale of the jury's deliberations remain beyond the Court's actual knowing, it is obvious that the jury's results are SO DETACHED from the CONTROLLING LEGAL PRINCIPLES AND THE EVIDENCE presented that the Court has virtually no choice but to make the ruling it has in this entry made. Regrettably from everyone's perspective, the JURORS TURNED TO THEIR OWN INSTINCTS for guidance, and the result is a verdict motivated by VENGANCE, passion, or benevolence -- a VERDICT CLEARLY BEYONE THEIR LAWFUL COMMISSION AND CHARTER."

In other words the jury made a random whim of a decision without evidence or legal justification, much like Cato's posts. And it was struck down!

SW's attitude is so typical and revealing. It ...

2011-05-19T10:31:02.544-05:00

SW's attitude is so typical and revealing. It doesn't matter whether cops are right or wrong; what matters is that someone dares criticize them, and that person is a target for police retaliation.

Note how he or she all but refers to the police as an army, acting in unison to attack anyone who opposes them.

"he'd be confronted by a team of police"

Mind you, this team/army is responding to a fictional event SW dreamt up and penned to find a way for his mind to craft some form of revenge. That's not healthy behavior. These guys are really freaking scary.

Oh, and if you look at the condition of the engagement, why is it cowards only like to attack when they have superior numbers or superior force? Andy Taylor didn't wear a gun, but then again, he also didn't receive surplus tanks, flamethrowers and APCs from DoD and DHS.

Cops, they have a-changed.

Still, the image SW conjures of a polyester-clad hit squad glistening with costume jewelry, roaming the streets in search of citizens to intimidate and vanquish is really pretty funny. Scary, but mostly funny. In SW's comic book, he has, perhaps accidentally, cast the cops as the arch villian.

I wonder whether psychoanalysis would reveal that SW and his ilk have a completely inverted system of right and wrong and the relationship of the citizen to the state?

Duke, get a final version of the facts, then we ca...

2011-05-19T10:13:24.550-05:00

Duke, get a final version of the facts, then we can have a discussion. The way your laughable story is going, we're going to have Frankenstein and Godzilla making appearances to shore up the gaping holes in that installment of Police Report Fantasies.

You don't even know you're making a joke of yourself. In response to my dissection of your fable, you reiterated a physically untenable position:

"Wrong. No one was on top of Sanders. He fled for the bedroom and the gun after letting the door go open. He did not have to get officer off of him, because they fell onto the floor of a house they had never been in before and were tangled in the newspapers and boxes stacked throughout."

Man, you don't get how comical your story is. According to you, a bunch of cops are pushing on the door. Sanders releases his pressure on the door. Ever heard of Isaac Newton? As soon as Sanders relents, the door flies open, and those cops slam into Sanders on the other side of the door. We can reenact this. It's easy. There is no time for Sanders to release a door then run and get his gun.

Unless, of course, Sanders closed the door, ran and got his gun, and the cops broke it down, ran in and unexpectedly met a man defending his home from armed criminal intruders.

Why am I explaining this to you, again? I already told you once that you were lying.

The cops overreacted and let their egos run wild. One cop died for his ego. The cops tried to kill Sanders over their ego. The City should have paid millions for that cop ego.

Stop having ego, and start knowing your subordinate place. When you're dismissed by a citizen, say "Yes Sir, Sir!" and make a proper 'bout face and double-time it away from the citizen.

There's a reason why that fairy tale lost in court and convinced no intelligent person.

Sorry, I'm just now seeing this. I am very am...

2011-05-19T08:49:14.621-05:00

Sorry, I'm just now seeing this. I am very amused by Leland and BigDuke's creative memories. I also find it interesting in their
obsession with Sanders' weight.

I was in Indy at the time and remember the incident well. The officers came out to Sanders residence to talk to him aobut a complaint of a barking dog. Sanders talked to the officers outside with no satisifaction. Sanders asked if he was under arrest and they said no. So he went back into his house rather than continue the conversation, which is Sanders' right to do. The officers furious, came to Sanders' door and demanded that he open it so they could talk to them. When Sanders refused, they began breaking down the door. Sanders retrieved a shotgun and shot Officer Faber. Right before the gunshot Faber turned so he actually got shot in the back.

Faber and the other officer acted like out-of-control idiots and I don't blame Sanders one bit for thinking he needed to defend himself and his property. While I don't wish anyone to be shot, Faber's reckless and illegal conduct was the chief factor in his getting shot.

As I recall, there was never any question whether Sanders was under arrest (he wasn't) or if Faber acted properly (he clearly didn't.) What was a major source of contention was Faber getting shot in the back instead of the front. The shooting in the back suggests Faber saw the gun and the illegal entry was being repelled and therefore there shooting him was unreasonable force. That's an arguable point. (Unlike Leland and BigDuke's creative facts and arguments.)

I agree with AI, the notion that Henry Karlson took the case to make money is laughable.

Let it go Duke. Cato is intellectually and factual...

2011-05-18T19:06:10.250-05:00

Let it go Duke. Cato is intellectually and factually bankrut, not to mention a coward. I believe he is an American, it's certainly his right to be an anarchist, wishing violence on the police in general. He knows that it's ok to bash an individual police officer who is deceased, and he would never threaten an individual living officer by name..because the gutless anonymity he enjoys would vanish, and he'd be confronted by a team of police..and he'd urinate down his leg and squeal like a 3 year old girl.

Big Duke, just let it go. People like cato know al...

2011-05-18T17:21:25.915-05:00

Big Duke, just let it go. People like cato know all and the police are never right...until someone wrongs him...then we cant get there quick enough. Just goes to show you whoever coined the phrase "damned if you do, damned if you dont" was a cop!!!!

You said: “Here's what happened.” OK. I w...

2011-05-18T13:50:25.090-05:00

You said: “Here's what happened.”

OK. I will fix it for you.

“according to the stories you and leland have published: Faber acted alone.”

Yes. Faber refused backup, thinking it wasn’t needed. He “acted” alone.

“He refused to accept being rejected by Sanders and was furious.”

Who testified that he was furious? Sanders didn’t. Evans didn’t. They were there. Why would you say he was?

“Faber intruded into Sanders' house against Sanders' wishes.”

Fresh pursuit? Unless you are still clinging to the unanswered question as to whether Faber meant to arrest him.

“Something occurred within the house, and Faber ended up dead. Other cops arrived…”

They were there already and yes something happened, a murder.

“…and tried to beat Sanders to death, only stopping when paramedics arrived.”

I don’t believe medics were there for several minutes after apprehension. I know the first ambulance took Faber. The second one took Sanders. Those cads.

“The cops blundered so badly in this case that they escalated an unleashed dog call to a cop death and a citizen attemptedly murdered by police. It really doesn't get more incompetent than that.”

Attemptedly? I don’t think that’s a word. The dog call is on tape. Called in by Evans in advance. On analog tape. (really old tape, not the cool digital kind you can change).
“Moral of the story: when someone tells you cops to leave, do it. Just move along; accept your place as subordinate to the citizen, and thank us that we employ you.”

See Evans calling police for help at the beginning of this post. You call Sanders a citizen. We called him a suspect, until he was charged. Then defendant until he PLED GUILTY. Then prisoner while he served his sentence.

“As soon as Sanders was hit with batons and CS spray, he lost any ability to form a mens rea necessary to commit any crime. He was so pained and distressed that he was acting at the basest level of survival, bereft of conscious thought”

THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU FOR TYPING THAT. THE LAST BASTION OF A COWARD AND HIS PROBABLY COWARDLY LAWYER. IF I DID IT, I DIDN’T MEAN TO. ALL THE CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENTS I MADE WERE TO IMPRESS MY FRIENDS OVER AT THE BEAGLE.