Comments on Advance Indiana™: The Politics And Religion Of Abortion And The Supreme Court

Speaking of politics: Giuliani just flip-flopped o...

2007-04-20T13:59:00.000-05:00

Speaking of politics: Giuliani just flip-flopped on this issue. He just said he approved of the Supreme Court decision but in 1996 he critizized the Pope for criticizing Clinton for vetoing the PBA ban.

So where does Rudy stand: is he for or against PBA? Does it depend whether he's running for Mayor of NYC or President of the Confederacy (aka GOP primary voter base) ?

Sadly, this outcome by the Supreme Court should no...

2007-04-20T10:59:00.000-05:00

Sadly, this outcome by the Supreme Court should not have been surprising. "Compassionate conservative" George Bush openly pledged to select Judges in the mold of Scalio and Thomas: he did. Elections have consequences.

So, if they see progress on the abortion front, th...

2007-04-20T10:04:00.000-05:00

So, if they see progress on the abortion front, they might leave the GLBTs alone? Sadly, I don't think they will go away, but they will feel that they've done their best for the day (week, month?) and settle back. But beware that there are always other wedge issues to come - immigration, property taxes and more.

Jeff: the idea of a flibberty-gibbet pregnant woma...

2007-04-20T10:00:00.000-05:00

Jeff: the idea of a flibberty-gibbet pregnant woman who cant decide whether to have an abortion or have her hair done is a false stereotype promulgated by the wingers. Late-term abortions are never done for trivial reasons. A woman doesnt carry the fetus so long and then decides on an abortion out of boredom or whatever without a damn good reason. Making such choices is horrendous.

Sadly, the emotionally-difficult "edges" of abortion are being nibbled away by the wedgewhacker politicos. Gay folk should be aware that hardcore "Right-to-Lifers" are also staunchly antigay. In many way, the anti- gaymarriage crowd is the same political tendency as the anti-abortion activists. The abortion issue is in some ways played out so anti-LGBT stuff is the latest leading-edge politics for the fundies.

I don't think anyone advocates for late-term abort...

2007-04-20T09:47:00.000-05:00

I don't think anyone advocates for late-term abortions do they? I am
an admitted pro-choicer, but the idea of aborting a late-term fetus just because you've suddenly decided you don't want it is to me abhorrent and unaccaptable.

But I just can't understand why there is objection to having an exception for the mother's health in ANY legislation regarding abortions.

Would the staunch anti-abortion folks prefer that a mother die rather than aborting a fetus if such a procedure was the only way to save the woman's life? Maybe I'm missing something, but this seems like an indefensible position to me.

Shorebreak, your example presumes a third trimeste...

2007-04-20T09:39:00.000-05:00

Shorebreak, your example presumes a third trimester abortion, which is not at issue here. The procedure is performed during the second trimester. Furthermore, the law still permits "the justified killing" of the fetus as you describe it as long as the D&E (dismemberment) procedure is used.

Now let's bring up the question of why Shorebreak ...

2007-04-20T09:26:00.000-05:00

Now let's bring up the question of why Shorebreak can't marry his horse. Another false slippery-slope.

Nobody anywhere is arguing for the need, necessity or humanity of giving a mother willy-nilly permission to terminate the life of a delivered baby which might be temporarily sustained on ultra-modern life support machines. Bringing up such hypotheticals is solely intended to muddy up the waters.

All but 2 Justices reaffirmed the basic right of choice as defined in Roe. The decision is about a particular, very-rare, late-term medical procedure and the right of government to intervene to control doctors.

Horse-marriage, infanticide and angel-censuses we shall leave to drunk sophomores and power-drunk politicos.

Religion and legal precedent aside, I expect that ...

2007-04-20T09:13:00.000-05:00

Religion and legal precedent aside, I expect that those who are defending late term abortions would also be willing to step forward and defend a mothers right to "terminate" her premature baby who is on life support at the local NIC unit.

If the baby isn't alive in the womb until a pregnancy has reached full term, then logic dictates it obviously can't be alive at 7 months where it requires life support from an incubator. Correct?

That's the logic that's being applied here, isn't it?

If not, then please: Somebody step forward and explain why the 7 month old fetus in the womb who is dependent on his/her mother for life support is NOT alive, while the 7 month old pre-term baby who's dependant upon an incubator, feedings, and oxygen IS alive.

If you can justify killing one, you MUST be capable of justifying killing both. If you can't do that, you know exactly what it is that you are supporting, regardless of the system of political beliefs have led you to your conclusions.

The question then becomes defining what is a "livi...

2007-04-20T09:04:00.000-05:00

The question then becomes defining what is a "living human being" doesn't it then? When is 'viability'? The fundies like Tom Delay even believe blastocysts are just Blasto-Americans, a tad short of deserving the right to vote and drive cars. Everybody agrees that living, healthy babies carried to full term cannot be killed. The point between sperm/egg and crying baby is what's argued about by reasonable people.

This new decision is bad in that it permits for the first time the government to force women to carry a pregnancy without regard to her own health. It might kill her and the baby born deformed and also dies but the government prohibits a doctor from helping either or both.

Humane? I think not!

This isn't about religion. Being pro-Choice isn't ...

2007-04-20T08:15:00.000-05:00

This isn't about religion. Being pro-Choice isn't anti-Christian bigotry. This is about humane treatment of human beings. Tearing a living human being apart limb-from-limb isn't humane. I'm an agnostic, but I know barbarism when I see it.

Really nice summary of Carhart, Gary. Thanks for ...

2007-04-20T08:06:00.000-05:00

Really nice summary of Carhart, Gary. Thanks for posting it.

And at the risk of adding some actual facts to this discussion, Scribe, Justice Ginsburg isn't even the most liberal justice on this Court. That distinction belongs to Justice Stevens. What's ironic is that when Justice Stevens joined the Court, he was considered to be a moderate, not a liberal. In the 30 some odd years he's served on the Court, Stevens' jurisprudence hasn't really become more liberal -- instead the Court has shifted to the right as conservative justices have been replaced their more liberal brethren.

Sorry, Scribe. I don't profess to be a medical exp...

2007-04-20T07:58:00.000-05:00

Sorry, Scribe. I don't profess to be a medical expert on these procedures as you seem to do. I do know what the trial court's record found from expert testimony, and that expert opinion has not changed over the past 7 years. And experts in the field assert the intact D&E procedure is safer for some women with certain health conditions, such a heart problems, uterile bleeding and compromised immune systems. It is illogical to make one procedure illegal and the other not without a solid, health-related rationale. To carry the purpose behind this law to its natural extension, you would need to outlaw all abortions, which I think it this majority's long-term objective. Justices Stevens and Souder, by the way, are Republican-appointed judges and both sided with Ginsberg. Does that make them, along with the two Jewish members of the Court, "anti-Christian bigots", as you have chosen to call me?

Good Lord Gary you've opened up the can of worms.....

2007-04-20T07:49:00.000-05:00

Good Lord Gary you've opened up the can of worms...

Christ has no place in this debate. Period. Ditto Allah. Or any other diety. Check that stuff at the door. This is raw and cold law, no more, no less.

This is government, Scribe. Not the Nazarene Assembly. Kindly keep your faith to yourself. And, regarding the particular procedure described, if you have no medical degree, and, as I suspect, you're not a female, you have no right to comment with any degree of authenticity. Run along and tell Eric and Micah that you tried. But you failed miserably.

That said, Allito lied. Pretty plainly. He's entitled. We should've known. Those Justice confirmations happened one year too early. Damn it.

And Scribe...you're unqualified to comment on the philosophical makeup of the Court, if you place Ginsberg as the most-liberal ever.

Feelin' a little overwhelmed?

The worst racists were always comforted by their f...

2007-04-20T07:31:00.000-05:00

The worst racists were always comforted by their firm belief that Biblical passages describing slavery supported their heinous views -- in fact, opposition to slavery (abolition) was considered anti-Scriptural.

The more it changes, the more it stays the same. The Devil can always quote Scripture to his own ends...

Gary, keep trying to convince us you aren't an ant...

2007-04-20T07:20:00.000-05:00

Gary, keep trying to convince us you aren't an anti-Christian bigot. I think it's working...

Funny that there's little, if any evidence that gruesomely dismembering a live child outside of the womb does anything to protect the health of a mother, but pro-abortion activists such as yourself and Ginsberg (perhaps the most liberal justice ever, not quite a balanced source to base your views on) refuse to accept that.

Is your hatred of Christianity such that it now forces you to take positions that support infanticide?

I suppose that next you'll be telling me that most Christians don't support my views.

I'm glad to see this article here -- I'm surprised...

2007-04-20T06:28:00.000-05:00

I'm glad to see this article here -- I'm surprised the usual crazies haven't been all over it denouncing you.

Thank you, Gary, for the excelloent review. Stare...

2007-04-20T04:47:00.000-05:00

Thank you, Gary, for the excelloent review. Stare decisis should've been the guiding factor here. Allito, in particular, lied during his confirmation process.

My general rule of thumb regarding Indiana law is: if Pat Miller is for it, I'm against it.