Comments on Advance Indiana™: ACLU & Democrats To Appeal To Supreme Court On Voter ID

Wilson46201 said... It's an irrelevancy in a di...

2007-05-18T21:57:00.000-05:00

Wilson46201 said...

It's an irrelevancy in a discussion of ( Pick any topic )

Nuff said ...

In light of the rampant corruption in the O'Bannon...

2007-05-18T19:58:00.000-05:00

In light of the rampant corruption in the O'Bannon-Kernan BMV-run facilities regarding the immigrant population and the low skill set of most BMV branch employees, the Daniels administration set up a central office to handle any documents issued by the federal government to the immigrant population. If an immigrant has been issued citizenship papers, the BMV branch employees should be trained to understand what they are. However, having visited a number of the BMV brances facilities in Indy, I'm not sure even training will get the job done. The only way they have concluded they can control the uniform application of the laws and regulations is to assign this responsibility to a trained, central staff in Indy.

"If I have a naturalization certificate with my ph...

2007-05-18T19:40:00.000-05:00

"If I have a naturalization certificate with my photo identification on it, I sure as hell call provide the BMV enough evidence to get a state-issued photo ID. I'm sick and tired of all the lies that the opponents of voter ID keep manufacturing to claim people are being disenfranchised. It's utter bullshit, and they know it."

Gary, that's not utter bullshit. I can verify that as recently as last fall the BMV office near my home even had a sign posted that stated that Certificates of Naturalization would be forwarded to the "Central Office" for verification with USCIS. I thought it odd since it was essentially creating a second class of citizen (which my wife will be a member of one day).

I even wrote Cindy Noe a couple of pages about that very issue when I sent back my legislative survey. She thanked me for "opening [her] eyes" to the problems that new citizens face.

Even aside from the voting issue, it's a real pain in the ass because the individuals are just issued a paper temporary receipt until the "Central Office" sends the actual license.

This has nothing to do with the Bush Administratio...

2007-05-18T18:08:00.000-05:00

This has nothing to do with the Bush Administration's botched firing of the U.S. Attorneys. The Clinton Justice Department under Janet Reno was a complete joke. We had the Chinese and other foreigners illegally financing the Democratic Party and Bill Clinton's presidential campaign. Reno's Justice Department covered the whole scandal up and refused to appoint an independent prosecutor. Nobody should have been surprised that the Clintons turned to a group of foreigners to finance the bulk of construction costs for the Clinton Library in Little Rock. Our own presidency sold to foreigners and nobody in the Democratic Party cared.

Gary, you really need to read Rick Hasen's piece t...

2007-05-18T17:58:00.000-05:00

Gary, you really need to read Rick Hasen's piece today in Slate before making light of the Democrats' decision to continue the fight over the photo ID law. http://www.slate.com/id/2166589/

Please focus your outrage where it belongs--on the Republican Party political operatives like Karl Rove and President Bush--for their outrageous efforts to corrupt our justice system and subvert our democracy.

I wasnt the poster regarding the first Crawford/Ra...

2007-05-18T16:28:00.000-05:00

I wasnt the poster regarding the first Crawford/Radford discussion, so I have no 'axe' or personal grudge to grind. I just find it humorous that you of all people get righteous and hissy about a 'personal ad hominem snipe' when that is the only thing you ever do. But at least you downgraded 'character assassination' to the snipe comment, so at least you showed some good judgement.

It's an irrelevancy in a discussion of voting righ...

2007-05-18T16:09:00.000-05:00

It's an irrelevancy in a discussion of voting rights. It's just a crude attempt to sidetrack and derail a discussion of serious issues with a gossipy ad-hominem snipe... You seem to have an axe to grind against some parolee to spend so much time "researching" the hearings. Dont bring your personal grudges into a voting rights discussion...

Hey Wilson. I researched the parole board hearing...

2007-05-18T16:00:00.000-05:00

Hey Wilson. I researched the parole board hearing for Radford and Rep Crawford was there, testifying for his release. How is that 'character assassination'?

Would Bob Croddy have been any better?(Teehee!)

2007-05-18T15:37:00.000-05:00

Would Bob Croddy have been any better?

(Teehee!)

You don't see me defending anything Tom John has d...

2007-05-18T15:12:00.000-05:00

You don't see me defending anything Tom John has done or not done on this score. In fact, I specifically criticized his ridiculous suggestion that inspectors who failed to show for duty should be prosecuted for committing a Class D felony. I think he's been grossly negligent as the GOP County Chairman in failing to call for a revote in those precincts, or supporting the extension of voting hours on election day. I'm very unimpressed with his performance over the last 2 months. I hope he improves, because he's got a lot of room for improvement.

The Scribe writes:Where's Al Sharpton when you nee...

2007-05-18T14:20:00.000-05:00

The Scribe writes:
Where's Al Sharpton when you need him?

Apparently not hanging around with racists like you...or perhaps you can explain exactly what Al has to do with Indiana's primary screw up.

Stallio just hit it out of the park.But Stal, frie...

2007-05-18T14:08:00.000-05:00

Stallio just hit it out of the park.

But Stal, friend...Republicans almost NEVER want to do anything to extend or open up poll hours. Or invite more folks to vote.

If only they did...

This entire event might change things.

Did the extremely-vocal new GOP Chairman call for ...

2007-05-18T13:58:00.000-05:00

Did the extremely-vocal new GOP Chairman call for a revote in those 5 precincts? Did he even call for extending voting hours Election Day? As I recall, he simply was correctly grousing loudly in general...

as a matter of fact, tom john explicitly said he was "inclined against" extending poll hours:

Marion County Republican Chairman Tom John said he is not inclined to ask a court to keep polls open beyond today's 6 p.m. deadline despite a slew of problems that have kept some residents from casting ballots as of midday.

"Under state law, under the case law, it takes almost an act of epic proportions to do it," he said. "We're continuing to assess our options and what's right to do, but we are currently inclined against doing it because of the extraordinary nature of seeking a lawsuit to get that done."

if this election was not messed-up enough to justify extending poll hours, surely it wasn't messed-up enough to take the more extreme measure of holding a whole new election.

Oh the irony of D's not wanting every vote to coun...

2007-05-18T11:33:00.000-05:00

Oh the irony of D's not wanting every vote to count.

Where's Al Sharpton when you need him?

Did the extremely-vocal new GOP Chairman call for ...

2007-05-18T11:06:00.000-05:00

*sketchy IDs

2007-05-18T11:02:00.000-05:00

*sketchy IDs

Gary, I asked the eastern European family if they'...

2007-05-18T11:01:00.000-05:00

Gary, I asked the eastern European family if they'd like to go to any number of lawyers who indicated they'd handle the case for free. I think when they settle down, they might just do that. Thanks.

For what it's worth, their "Naturalization" papers are sloppy and contain no Photo ID. They showed them to me. Honestly, a good computer printer could've done a better job.

The youngest son, who's 19, is buying a car next week and will have to go to BMV to get a license. He's not as passive as the rest of his family. He has been to the Nora BMV branch three times to ask them what he has to bring for a state ID...he got four different answers. No kidding.

What he has: a lease, utility bills, a work photo ID, an Ivy Tech photo ID, his bank accounts, his US Citizenship Certificate given to him at the ceremony presided over by Judge Barker earlier this year, "transport papers" to this country dated 1999, and a hospital "receipt" that indicates he was born in 1988. Although the BMV's answers were inconsistent, one thing was certain--he didn't have enough "points". And he has more than any of the rest of the eight voting-age folks in his family, scattered over three apartments on the northwest side. His parents have no birth record whatsoever. They left their country with the clothes on their backs and their children and a sister.

And they have multiple friends who are similarly affected.

Anecdotally, Sen. Bayh's office called them yesterday to tell them they'd like to help, too. We'll see where that goes. Frankly, I wish I'd directed them to the plaintiff lawyers in the ID case...they're perfect plaintiffs in this matter. Much moreso than Crawford for cryin' out loud. But then, they weren't cirizens yet.

Out there in the real world, Gary, far from you and me, these cases exist. Many of them. Rokita's ridiculous law was not needed. Period.

If you think it's been tame in the past, wait to see if the newly-announced Immigration settlemenmt becomes law. Then, the floodgates will be open, to probationary citizenship AND voting, in some cases. With ketchy IDs.

What fun.

For what it's worth, the log still reads pretty darned well most of the time.

Again, I don't know why I'm getting worked up over these folks...they indicated they'd all likely vote straight Republican. They adore George Bush.

I'm glad someone does.

Again, if the Dems had simply asked White to condu...

2007-05-18T10:59:00.000-05:00

Again, if the Dems had simply asked White to conduct a revote in those precincts, it would have happened without the need for any lawsuits. She didn't even petition the court the day of the election to extend voting hours for polling places which opened late--as had been done in the past.

Gary, there's much that I agree with you about, bu...

2007-05-18T10:30:00.000-05:00

Gary, there's much that I agree with you about, but the voter ID law is not one of them. Look, the issue isn't whether Democrats can and should file suit over every election injustice. I was sick about the problems on primary election day in Marion County, but lawsuits aren't necssarily the answer to every problem. My rejoinder would be to inquire why the Republican Party hasn't filed suit if it feels that the system went so badly awry.

Having voters identify themselves in some way is not the issue. What's wrong with our law is the restricted forms of IDs that are acceptable, which places burdens on the right to vote that aren't shared equally among all voters. As even Posner concedes, those burdens fall disproportionately on poor people. Why does the law require an indigent voter to make a second trip to the Clerk's office to sign an indigency affidavit, instead of having those available at the polls? It's because the goal of these laws, as recent disclosures make perfectly clear, is to discourage and thus limit voter turnout in ways that benefit Republicans.

Everyone in the community needs to step up to the plate and help to insure that what happened this month in the Marion County never happens again. But the May 8 fiasco was not about a deliberate attempt to depress turnout, it was a function of our outmoded way of administering elections, having way too many precincts, and the extreme difficulties associated with finding in less than 6 months over 900 persons who are essentially volunteering their time to work the long hours at the polls on election day.

There's got to be a better way to run our elections, and any solutions must be crafted on a bipartisan basis to have any chance of succeeding. But I fail to see any connection between that issue and the lawsuit over the photo ID law.

The BMV is very spotty and hit-or-miss about docum...

2007-05-18T10:19:00.000-05:00

The BMV is very spotty and hit-or-miss about documentation needed to get State ID. Personally, I had postponed getting my old expired ID renewed because of all the stated documentation required. I armed myself with a whole passel of documents. I was merely asked to produce my expired ID (sloppily issued in pre-9/11 days). The only lengthy discussion involved what hair color did we think it was appropriate to use for the record.

The BMV has a lengthy regulation online about the requisite documentation for State ID. Needless to say, it's rather intimidating to non-attorneys! It also seems to be optional and arbitrary for the clerks to use in real life...

Hey, anon 10:13, if you want to offer me sincere a...

2007-05-18T10:18:00.000-05:00

Hey, anon 10:13, if you want to offer me sincere advice, then put your name to it. Otherwise, keep it to yourself.

Gary, what's been the matter with you lately?I hav...

2007-05-18T10:13:00.000-05:00

Gary, what's been the matter with you lately?

I have to echo the previous comment, although I often disagree with you, you have always had a civilized, intelligent blog. Over the last two weeks, its become much closer to IndyU or "FrugalHoosiers.

You often call for officials to own up to mistakes. Beth White did that. She royally screwed up, but then owned up do it and will work to make sure it never happens agian.

VoterID, as you know isn't a law, it wasn't needed, and likely had an underhanded motive. That said, it also hasn't presented the rampant disenfranchisement that some feared. SCOTUS decision: 50-50.

Gary, go on vacation, take a break, do whatever, but when you come back, re-attach your head and bring back the intelligent blog I used to love.

If I have a naturalization certificate with my pho...

2007-05-18T10:04:00.000-05:00

If I have a naturalization certificate with my photo identification on it, I sure as hell call provide the BMV enough evidence to get a state-issued photo ID. I'm sick and tired of all the lies that the opponents of voter ID keep manufacturing to claim people are being disenfranchised. It's utter bullshit, and they know it.

Indiana law requires an expiration date on that go...

2007-05-18T09:54:00.000-05:00

Indiana law requires an expiration date on that government issued document. Does the naturalization certificate have such an expiry date? If not, no dice!

Hey, Wilson, I'll let you in on a little secret. T...

2007-05-18T09:50:00.000-05:00

Hey, Wilson, I'll let you in on a little secret. The naturalization certificate the government issues a person who becomes a naturalized citizen contains a photo of the naturalized citizen. Is that not a government-issued ID?