Comments on Advance Indiana™: Did We Hit A Raw Nerve?

A couple more things: 1. You highlight your compa...

2010-08-02T08:36:56.594-05:00

A couple more things:

1. You highlight your comparison of the Conseco to Kansas City's new Sprint Center. A major issue, however, is the loss of THE major tenant. Sprint has never had such a tenant, which makes your compariosn flawed. A more apt comparison would be Kansas City's Kemper Arena, which lost the NBA Kings in 1985; San Diego Sports Arena, which lost the NBA Clippers in 1984; and to a lesser extent Seattle's Key Arena, which just lost the NBA SuperSonics. The San Diego Sports Arena is now basically a slum and a bad joke to the locals. Kemper has been a joke for some time in Kansas City, though precisely why eludes me since it's not in bad shape. Key Arena is a little hard to determine since so little time has elapsed since the Sonics were stolen, but the perception in Seattle seems to be that Key Arena has definite difficulties ahead.

2. Concerning your point in your earlier about the valuation of the Golden State Warriors compared to that of the Pacers, the comment that I hear periodically is, for example, "The Pacers are worth $300million. How can they be losing money?" That number is not income; it may be income potential, but it is not income. That value can't be realized until the team is sold. Until then, the team is like any other business, with income and expenses. It might be best to compare it to a diamond. The diamond might be worth $1 million, but you still have to pay to store it and secure it. Unless the diamond can generate income, the diamond will lose money. A sports team, in a business sense, is similar.

I think you're over-analysing this. Maybe the...

2010-08-01T12:16:34.884-05:00

I think you're over-analysing this. Maybe the Pacers fans just drink more beer than the Indians fans. Drunks are more likely to spend freely and do other things (such as speeding and driving wrecklessly) that cost money.

Sometimes the simplest explanation is the best.

From AS's article: "First, Pacers ticket...

2010-07-31T17:13:45.684-05:00

From AS's article:

"First, Pacers tickets—even at a discount—cost much more than Indians tickets, and that’s a big part of any team’s economic impact."

Counting the exorbitant tickets (other than any tax revenue generated) is no way to determine economic impact - the only impact that matters is the impact on employment, wages and tax revenue generated. And when the substitution effect is accounted for, with respect to how much money would have been spent locally elsewhere on entertainment (a luxury option, not a necessity), the economic impact of either has to be paltry indeed. The money collected by the Pacers from tickets(or the Indians for that matter) impacts no one but themselves. The only thing that would change without the Pacers is that the money in the community, as well as the type of jobs would be distributed differently.

timothydee wrote: "Perhaps a glance at the m...

2010-07-31T09:35:48.262-05:00

timothydee wrote:

"Perhaps a glance at the massive differential in payrolls might help you understand how one team loses money and another shows a profit."

No, actually, it's the way they MANAGE (or mismanage, as the case may be) their payroll that determines how one loses money and another shows a profit.

You obviously missed my review of how well other a...

2010-07-31T08:44:55.855-05:00

You obviously missed my review of how well other arenas have done without professional sports team, Timothy Dee. In fact, the departure of the Pacers would actually mean a huge financial windfall for Marion Co. taxpayers. See http://advanceindiana.blogspot.com/2010/07/if-kansas-city-can-do-it.html

While I don't necessarily support the actions ...

2010-07-30T23:07:28.742-05:00

While I don't necessarily support the actions of the CIB, your assertion that a AAA baseball team draws more out-of-town fans than an NBA franchise is ludicrous and undermines your argument.

I detest the NBA, but ProCynic has it right. Perhaps a glance at the massive differential in payrolls might help you understand how one team loses money and another shows a profit. I witnessed the Simons' loyalty to Naptown when the curtains ruled MSA. Like it or not, we owe any success of our resurgent downtown to the Simons (for the Mall & the Pacers) and the cutthroats who helped Hudnut lure the Colts from Baltimore.

In addition, you fail to mention the issue of maintaining a viable tenant in the recently constructed Fieldhouse. There are important issues here, especially our public schools as dcrutch pointed out. Unfortunately, you missed most of them.

Gary? This blog is fabulous cause you hit a raw n...

2010-07-30T18:53:38.152-05:00

Gary? This blog is fabulous cause you hit a raw nerve on a daily basis.

KEEP IT UP AND KEEP THE HEAT ON.

While we're patiently waiting for the pro sala...

2010-07-30T14:44:04.207-05:00

While we're patiently waiting for the pro salaries to adjust to market reality, we subsidize the difference- all while at 10% unemployment, a 50% graduation of our kids in IPS, and paying for government takeover of a sixth of the economy (health "reform").

How's being a middle market that dreams of being "big" working out, Indy?

And the Pacers haven't adjusted player salarie...

2010-07-30T13:09:08.285-05:00

And the Pacers haven't adjusted player salaries in conformance with the quality of their product.

In fact, the approach is 'we stink, we need to get higher paid players' and thus put a bigger dent in their bottom line.

They can do this because they know they will get the City to make up any shortfall incurred.

What we as taxpayers are forced to accept is what used to be called involutary servitude. We have no say, we have no choice, we are forced to serve our self-appointed masters - pro sports.

Gary, That might be your experience. And I know p...

2010-07-30T13:04:26.128-05:00

Gary,

That might be your experience. And I know people who have come out of town for the occasional Indianapolis Indians game, too, but they are in a very small minority. I know many, many more people, not to mention myself, who travel to major league stadiums and arenas across the country, whether to support their favorite team on the road while seeing a different stadium, or seeing a classic venue like (old) Yankee Stadium. Minor league baseball stadiums are small for a reason, even in larger minor league cities like Indianapolis, Columbus or Buffalo. It's something to do in the area and little else. This is no knock at all against the Indianapolis Indians, who have a first rate stadium and are a class organization through and through worthy of praise. But neither they nor any other minor league team have the out-of-town drawing power of a major league team, not even the Pacers.

Your point about the Pacers driving away their own fans with the criminal conduct of their players is accurate, but not totally relevant. The Pacers may not attract their own fans, but they attract fans of visiting teams, especially the Los Angeles Lakers, New York Knicks (both with national followings, even as bad as the Knicks are); Cleveland Cavaliers, Detroit Pistons or Chicago Bulls (all with regional followings). The Indianapolis Indians from a structural standpoint simply cannot consistently attract visiting fans to make a statistically significant difference.

Sorry, ProCynic, but I know people who drive over ...

2010-07-30T12:31:59.463-05:00

Sorry, ProCynic, but I know people who drive over here from my home town in Illinois, including my own family members, to watch the Indians play. Several years ago, people would drive in from out-of-town to see the Pacers play, but not any more. They ruined their product by filling the team with a bunch of ego maniac, overpaid, and misbehaving players who were more known for their after hours antics than their on court performance. If the team is losing moeny, it's of their own making and it shouldn't be our responsibility to subsidize the billionaire owner because he runs a lousy NBA franchise.

Gary, I'm not questioning the dollar amounts ...

2010-07-30T12:03:18.700-05:00

Gary,

I'm not questioning the dollar amounts you mention here, but I must take issue with the idea that minor league baseball will draw more out-of-towners than an NBA team.

Minor league baseball teams don't usually draw well, if at all, from outside their home markets. An NBA basketball team is an order of magnitude more likely to draw out-of-towners than a Triple-A baseball team. There is generally neither the emotional connection nor the emotional bond to a minor league team that there is to a major league team, be it MLB, NBA, NFL or NHL; thus, the motivation to drive long distances to see a minor league team is far less.

This is one reason why minor league baseball stadiums are usually much smaller than their major league counterparts. To use a comparison directly relevant to your post, a Los Angeles Laker fan in Dayton, Louisville or Cincinnati is much. much more likely to come to Indy to see the Lakers play the Pacers than a fan of the Norfolk Tides or Toledo Mudhens located in the same cities to see those teams play the Indianapolis Indians.